I dare anyone reading this, to ask this question (why do animals have to suffer so much just because Adam sinned, or why does God kill countless innocent creatures or order them to be killed in the Bible) to a JW next time they see one..
For me personally, as someone who detests animal cruelty, just thinking about the literal global flood scenario helped me to see our 'loving heavenly Father' in a whole new light..
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
Bttt for todays talk. Never mind why does God permit wickedness, why does he permit animals to suffer? Does he not see every sparrow?
Lurkers, what do you think?
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
Perryposted~ 19 hours ago(4/25/2014)
Post4308of4308
Joined12/21/2001
"Because the universe as it is, not as we would imagine it, allows for its possibility. When Adam fell, and became God's enemy ....everything in Adam, and under his dominion became disconnected one way or another - from the Source of Life."
..Whereas even the best apologist website I could find, a guy who has written an entire book on natural evil, said..
"However, given the very powerful evidence that animals (and their pain, suffering, death, and predation) pre-existed the first human beings, that view seems incomplete. If the pain and suffering of animals predates Adam’s existence, it is hard to see how his (or our) sin could fully explain it...it is worth asking this question: “If all animal pain and suffering came after Adam’s Fall, would the Fall be a potentially good explanation for that pain and suffering?”Many Christian theologians have thought so (Calvin endorses this view in his commentary on chapter 8 of the book of Romans for example).
But this explanation has one difficulty, a difficulty I call the “fragility objection.” To see the objection we must consider this question: “What is the supposed connection between Adam’s Fall and animal pain?"...In either case, however, it is hard to see why God would have made the integrity and well-being of nature, and of the innocent creatures in it, susceptible to the faithful obedience of humans (an obedience God knew they would not sustain). Why was nature made so very fragile in this way? Is not that fragility itself a defect (or evil) in creation?" -
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Theocratic Ministry School Review Answer Sheet of June PDF
by WatchTower87 intheocratic ministry school review answer sheet of june pdfinstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf: http://adf.ly/kvobk.
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defender of truth
Here's more evidence..
"I get a vrius message and can't download"
"I also get a virus message when trying to download .."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/279067/1/2014-03-29-BOE-CONFIDENTIALS-PDF-Adjustment-to-financing-Kingdom-Hall-and-Assembly-Hall-construction-worldwide -
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BOE - PDF - CONFIDENTIAL 2014-04-22 Adjustment in process for appointing elders and ministerial servants
by WatchTower87 inboe - confidential.
instruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
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defender of truth
Here's more evidence..
"I get a vrius message and can't download"
"I also get a virus message when trying to download .."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/279067/1/2014-03-29-BOE-CONFIDENTIALS-PDF-Adjustment-to-financing-Kingdom-Hall-and-Assembly-Hall-construction-worldwide -
51
BOE - PDF - CONFIDENTIAL 2014-04-22 Adjustment in process for appointing elders and ministerial servants
by WatchTower87 inboe - confidential.
instruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
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defender of truth
Be careful, this posters' previous pdf link contained malware and the thread was deleted..
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Theocratic Ministry School Review Answer Sheet of June PDF
by WatchTower87 intheocratic ministry school review answer sheet of june pdfinstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf: http://adf.ly/kvobk.
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defender of truth
Be careful, this posters' previous pdf link contained malware and the thread was deleted..
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127
OK..Seriously..Has GOD ever answered your prayers????
by DATA-DOG inlook...i am not an atheist.
even so, i have never had one prayer answered my entire life.
the only thing that would even come close was learning ttatt.
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defender of truth
"..And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine.
Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them....So we must ask a fundamental question: Did an all-loving, all-powerful God hear the prayers from Jeanna's worldwide prayer circle and then reach down from heaven to help Jeanna? Did God actually interact with Jeanna's body, making the impossible happen and curing her case of rabies through a divine miracle?
Or did something else happen?
We can actually answer this question with a simple experiment....
A simple experiment
For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.
Now create a prayer circle like the one created for Jeanna Giese. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the soldier, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him. Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the soldier's legs overnight, in the same way that God spontaneously and miraculously cured Jeanna Giese and Marilyn Hickey's mother.
If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.
What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.
And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen."
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm -
127
OK..Seriously..Has GOD ever answered your prayers????
by DATA-DOG inlook...i am not an atheist.
even so, i have never had one prayer answered my entire life.
the only thing that would even come close was learning ttatt.
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defender of truth
@Vanderhoven: Thank you for replying, but you have misunderstood me. I wasn't asking you to comment on what God will or will not do. I was saying..Will you ask God to give you (1,000,000 was just an example) x amount of pounds in the next month (that you do not have and would not have in the near future without a gift, just as with the shed/mortgage story) to, for example, give to feed starving children in Africa? It would be an unselfish request.. Unless you don't want to ask for something to fulfill the desperate need of other people??If He responds, and someone gives you the amount (that you haven't told anyone), as you feel He has done to fulfil your needs in the past, then good.. If He doesn't, then you may have learnt something . Afterwards, please let us know what truthfully happened..Also, did the evangelist you saw heal anyone who was paralysed or missing a limb? Thanks.
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127
OK..Seriously..Has GOD ever answered your prayers????
by DATA-DOG inlook...i am not an atheist.
even so, i have never had one prayer answered my entire life.
the only thing that would even come close was learning ttatt.
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defender of truth
"Defender has provided a link to Lawrence Tisdall."..I see that you can read my posts. Thank you for acknowledging that I exist. Now can you please respond to what I asked you? Here it is again.."Vanderhoven, can you please ask God to provide you with £1,000,000 in order for you to donate it to help end homelessness in the UK? Thousands are in need, not just you.If He would provide for you to fix your shed and pay your mortgage, how much more of a worthy cause would this be? I'm being serious, not flippant. Please at least have the respect to reply with a yes or no, and a reason would be even more appreciated."http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homeless-def-numbers.html